Moose tags for Remote Tourist Outfitters

seniors13

This is how it starts, folks. This is a very long one, make sure you read it to the end to get all the facts

 

Many moose hunters in Ontario are visibly upset with recent announcements that tag quotas were reduced by an average of 18% Province wide. Some areas such as Thunder Bay or Kirkland Lake were reduced by more than 80%.

 There are many theory’s on how this will affect everyone; here is one example;

The areas with the highest number of tag reductions should, in theory reduce the number of hunters in these areas. Some of these hunters will not even bother to hunt as a result but many others will go to other WMU’s thus overcrowding these areas and as a result increase the success rate of hunters , thus reducing the moose population in these areas to unacceptable limits “at least that is what MNR will claim”.

 It is highly expected MNR will then reduce the number of tags in these WMU’s.

Is this another way to keep us out of the woods and turn these areas over to the Remote Tourist Outfitters?

 Many of us do not even believe the survey   on moose population through the MNR fly over’s the least bit accurate. Systematically MNR are closing down the woods, “Crown Land” to the taxpayers of Ontario. They remove bridges, culverts, install berms, erect gates, and install signs dis-allowing motorized vehicles. In some areas they will not even allow bicycles or anything with wheels or tires.

 But they will allow us to walk in 3-50 km to get to these special lakes or areas that the Remote Tourist Outfitters to fly into. Did you know that in many of these areas , even if you have your own float plane you cannot land there without paying huge fees.

 Oh, and by the way, the Remote Tourist Outfitters get about 10% of the allotted moose tags throughout the North. No, I just found out it was increased to 12% a couple of years ago. My guess is we missed all the public consultation on this one.  These tags are for their clients, to attract them to hunt in remote areas of Northern Ontario, where the regular taxpayers of Ontario are not allowed because MNR closed off access to these areas to protect business. Bring in the wealthy and let them hunt like noblemen of olden times.

Yes, it is a two tier system, one for the rich and one for the rest of us. Only in Ontario, Yours to Discover.  We are such a complacent society. When are we going to start standing up for ourselves?

  These Outfitters tags were reduced by 0.00% Is this fair?

 In the email below from MNR they state they will discuss with stakeholder representatives before they make any decision on tag reductions for the2015 season. Why is this done for the Remote Tourism Industry only?

These are the Stakeholder Representatives; This link is to the board chair and members of the advisors and their bio’s are included; 1 ex MNR, 1 ex OFAH  and the remainder represent the Remote Tourist Outfitters. Sooo, who represents the public?

https://www.pas.gov.on.ca/scripts/en/BoardDetails.asp?boardID=112358

 We thought this story was about the reduction of moose tags, but really it is all about ACCESS or lack of it to specific areas of our forests and lakes by MNR except for the chosen few.

Closing specific areas of forests or lakes  is required at times but close these areas for EVERYONE.

It is time for you to speak up and contact  your MPP, NEWS MEDIA, Minister of Natural Resources, or Ombudsman  and have your voice heard.

 

At the bottom of this article you will find email correspondence as to how all this rambling came about and where it currently stands.

 

 

E-mail addresses and mailing address below along with sample letter, feel free to use the letter as is or modify it to suit your thoughts.

 

E-mail

Honourable David Orazietti

Ministry Ministry of Natural Resources
Suite 6630, 6th
 Floor, Whitney Block
99 Wellesley Street West
Toronto, Ontario M7A 1W3
Tel 416-314-2301
Fax 416-325-1564
Constituency Room 202, 2nd Floor
432 Great Northern Road
Sault Ste Marie, Ontario P6B 4Z9
Tel 705-949-6959
Fax 705-946-6269
  •  Ministry of Natural Resources
    (Natural Resources Information Centre)
    300 Water Street
    Peterborough ON  K9J 8M5
    Canada

Ombudsman Office

Telephone; Our complaints staff are available 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. You may also leave a voice message outside of office hours.
Toll-free (inside Ontario only):
1-800-263-1830
Outside Ontario: 416-586-3300
TTY(teletypewriter): 1-866-411-4211
Please be aware that your call may be recorded for accuracy, quality assurance and training purposes.Email:info@ombudsman.on.caFax:
416-586-3485Mail:
Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario
Bell Trinity Square
483 Bay Street, 10th Floor, South Tower
Toronto, ON
M5G 2C9
In person:An appointment is recommended for in-person (walk-in) complaints. Please call 1-800-263-1830 to schedule an appointment.
The office is located at 483 Bay Street, (Bell Trinity Square, 10th Floor, South Tower), Toronto.
Office hours are from Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. 

Dear Ministry of Natural Resource and Ombudsman of Ontario,

 Due to the mishandling to the Natural resources committed by the MNR it is time for a full investigation into your tactics and practices of the MNR in general.

 This years moose survey results reflects the malfeasance committed by the MNR at all levels and the lack of understanding you folks have shown to the handling of our resources.  You refuse to deal with the predator issue and to even build this into your test cases and you have reduced the availability of tags using bogus and false information.

 All areas have been severely reduced without proper input from Hunters and the people of the North.  The MNR  is running an agency without proper oversight and it is disgusting and arrogant.  You waited to send out the information to the last minute and held it up until the draw was coming up so we could not put in our opinions.

The Government of Ontario and the people of Ontario should be ashamed by the way the MNR is mishandle things.

 I am demanding a full investigation into this and it must be made to the public.

 Thank you

 

 

 

 

========================================================

 Sent: April 18, 2014 5:42 AM
To: NRIC, MNR (MNR)
Subject: Moose tags decline

 

Just wondering if these tag reductions will also be affecting remote tourism as well?

 ==================================================

Subject: RE: Moose tags decline

 Hello Gord,

 Thank you for your inquiry.

 The Ministry of Natural Resources is currently determining draft moose tag allocations for the tourist industry for 2015. These will be discussed with stakeholder representatives in mid-May before final decisions are made. Typically, when changes are made to validation tag numbers, all stakeholders are affected. MNR will analyse and discuss the implications of any changes to moose tag allocations to tourist outfitters before finalizing them for 2015.

 If you require further assistance please contact the Natural Resources Information Centre at 1-800-667-1940.

Regards,

 ************************************

Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources

Natural Resources Information Centre

300 Water Street, 3rd Floor, North Tower

Peterborough, ON K9J 3C7

1-800-667-1940

TTY: 1-866-686-6072

Fax: 705-755-1677

 ================================================================================

 From: Gord

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 5:29 PM

Subject: Moose tag allocations? awaiting my 2nd question

 Just wondering with the discussions with ALL STAKEHOLDERS to the topic of the allocations of moose tags,  which stakeholders will represent the primary stakeholders in mid MAY at these meetings meaning the general public? Please reply Thank You have a nice day , Gord

 

=====================================================================================

 From: Paul  

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 6:40 PM
 
Subject: Re: Moose tag allocations? awaiting my 2nd question

 Gord,

I have no idea who the stakeholder representatives  are or how they are selected by MNR.  Did not even know they had public meetings, perhaps they are advertised in Toronto and South of there.

You do bring up a good point, however, and I for one would like to know the answers. Are they selected like the LCC’s , with MNR making all selections and approvals, like a kangaroo court.

Strange how they can reduce our tags on a whim, but for the remote outfitters they want to analyse and discuss the implications.   Another example of their broken system.

Please let me know what you find out so I can post it to the public

Thanks

Paul

============================================================================================================================

From: Mike  

Sent: May-12-14 7:38 AM

Subject: RE: Moose tag allocations? awaiting my 2nd question

 

Keep in mind Paul,this is only for the outfitters. The reps for outfitters have formed a group(big game selection committee) for selection and allocation of moose tags for outfitters. I will phone as soon as their office is open. The MNR allocates 10% of the moose tags in Ontario to outfitters. If the WMA is not requiring tags thenWM areas like 22 get 80% of tags allocated to outfitters. Another blow to hunters In Dubreuilville and south of Hornepayne. I will call you when I get info.

Lots of fighting on these committees,since the outfitters with the largest number of tags and clients have the greatest saying.

 

=======================================================================================================

From: Gord
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 5:04 PM

Subject: RE: Moose tag allocations? awaiting my 2nd question

 In all fairness guys , we are talking about a meeting called by a public office ,our trustee(our MNR) on a subject that at the end of the day we all want to know what has been decided. Now  it should be noted that whenever our trustee calls a meeting, it should be open to all stakeholders primary and secondary. There should not be any answer from our MNR saying that this meeting does not pertain to you so your stakeholder group does not have to attend the meeting , because the last time I checked the public as well as the outfitters are ALL collective owners of  Ontario’s resources

==================================================================================================

 

 From  Mike  

Subject: RE: Moose tag allocations? awaiting my 2nd question

 I agree with you Gord,and I called Greg Lucking from the Big Draw office of the Peterborough MNR office and asked to be informed on the moose tags allocated to each Wildlife Management Areas for outfitters. He was to return my call or email the info,but has not responded ,yet.

   He said that the tags for 2014 were allocated last fall,so the outfitters could plan their  clients for the fall of 2014. Sounds good,but what about this mid May meeting,for 2015.

 

==================================================================================

From Mike

 Just got off the phone with Greg Lucking from the Peterborough MNR and we discussed the allocation of moose tags to the public and outfitters. After this meeting with the big game allocation committee,he will get back to me.

  We discussed how the MNR does not control native,poaching,bear,wolf,train – road kill ,but is trying to control the white man and the tourism trade re allocation of issuing tags.Another  issue for us the public and outfitters.  He understands these problems,so I told him that based on surveys ,the MNR may have to inform the outfitters that tags will decrease for them also. I pointed out to him that eventually the outfitters may have to be removed from the equation.

  For him this smells like socialism to the detriment of free enterprise,and I agree with him.(just like access to our lands and waters),but like I told him,we are the taxpayers and they(MNR)must consider the public’s concerns,since they represent us. He agreed and will get back to me.

On another note,Greg did his homework and was well aware of were I was coming from. A number of MNR personnel are now working in Peterborough and know my background,from biologist to forester,to land and forest supervisors to district managers. I seem to be well known,but not necessarily admired. WONDER WHY????

 ==============================================================================================

From Paul     13 May

 I spoke to MNR this morning mostly specific to the allocation of tags to the Remote Tourist Outfitters for 2015.

 Before we got into 2015, I asked if the RTO received any reduction for 2014, the answer was what we expected , their allotment remained the same as they were given their tags in Oct/Nov of last year. This would further lead one to believe that the fly bye’s in previous years showed no significant reduction in the herds and that this last winter’s fly by (2014)  showed catastrophic decline in the population in some areas such as Thunder Bay therefore the large reduction on tag numbers for the regular hunters.

 ust my opinion here , but would you not think the Outfitters would welcome a reduction “even a small one” if it would keep the moose population stable or at the very least show some conservation on their part , so as not to affect their business in future upcoming years.

 On with the big meeting to discuss potential changes for 2015; The next 4 lines is a direct quote Gord received from the MNR hotline email;

The Ministry of Natural Resources is currently determining draft moose tag allocations for the tourist industry for 2015. These will be discussed with stakeholder representatives in mid-May before final decisions are made. Typically, when changes are made to validation tag numbers, all stakeholders are affected. MNR will analyse and discuss the implications of any changes to moose tag allocations to tourist outfitters before finalizing them for 2015.

 The discussions with the stakeholder representavites  in mid May is not a public meeting , it is a summary by the Provincial Advisory Committee on moose and bear to the MNR. There are no public meetings to discuss these issues The committee consists of stakeholders such as Outfitters and the public is represented by OFAH.  THEY WRITE THEIR OWN TICKET. Very hard to keep your cool when they tell you this.

 

I was always under the impression the outfitters, RTO were allotted 10% of the overhaul tags, apparently this percentage was raised to 12% several years ago. Big numbers  overall for RTO , and how many extra tags did the rest of us get? None.

 

So now MNR will listen to what OFAH “representing the public” WOULD BE INTERESTING WHO APPOINTED THEM and their Ontario Out of Door magazine that they make a good portion of their money from advertising for Remote Tourist Outfitters, no conflict of interest here, MNR and the Minister think we are fools. If we do not challenge them perhaps we are the fools. Any bets on what the decision will be?

This link is to the board chair and members of the advisors and their bio’s are included; 1 ex MNR, 1 ex OFAH  and the remainder represent the Remote Tourist Outfitters. Sooo, who represents the public?

https://www.pas.gov.on.ca/scripts/en/BoardDetails.asp?boardID=112358

 

When I enquired about having a real public meeting to determine how many special tags should be given to the RTO, how the numbers are allotted to RTO, or why  the reduction or increases to RTO  were not published in the web or the hunting rules and regulations or in the media they had no reply but would get back to me, but not sure when as there is a ongoing Provincial Election. The MNR give out or disclose all info that affect us but not the RTO.

 

Why not publish everything, what are the MNR hiding that will enrage the moose hunters of Ontario so badly they will not give out the numbers?

 

 

{ 19 comments… add one }
  • Zeke Marshall May 14, 2014, 4:55 pm

    I am glad people are starting to contact the MNR we need more people to pressure them. Keep up the good work everyone.

  • Darren Michaud May 14, 2014, 5:11 pm

    Why do we have a special interest for profit organization representing the public. The OFAH may have a right to attend this meeting but should be sitting behind the public, not for the public! The OFAH was present at the last meeting in Sudbury we had with the MNR in regards to moose tags allocation. Citizen after citizen walked up the microphone and spoke up. The member from the OFAH told citizen after citizen to sit down, that their turn was up. In my opinion the public was interrupted from representing itself with the presence of the OFAH. They do not speak for my family, friends or myself.

    Darren Michaud

  • Zeke May 14, 2014, 11:44 pm

    I have finally had contact with the Ontario Ombudsman about the Moose tag allocation issues for the 2014 Hunt.

    They were actually very helpful and courteous unlike the MNR which does not want to seem to talk to me. So I was told by the Ombudsman’s Office to re-send another letter being very specific about what we would like to ask the OMNR.

    I would like you if possible to please ask the rest of the members what questions they would like me to include with the letter. I have a good idea of what needs to be asked but I am hoping more people will have more specific questions. As well one of the MPP’s John Vanthof has brought up the miss-management of the moose tag system to David Orazietti who basically refused to answer which is the Norm.

    I also have some questions to the OFAH to see if I can get some info from them.

    I was asked to fill a FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) request to the OMNR which the cost of the filling fee isn’t the issue what scares me is the cost of getting the info from them as they can charge what ever they want for the info and unfortunately I do not have that much funding at this time to pay large amounts for information that should be public information. The info I am requesting is all the fly over Data for all the WMU affected by tag reductions and some that were not.
    The reason why this is important is to show if the MNR is actually following it’s own guide on Moose surveys and I am sure we will find they are not.

    The funny part is the MNR reduced the tags in my area WMU 28 to 30 tags and I just received confirmation from some friends of mine that my camp is over run with moose. Actually the exact comment was, “Hey Zeke we will need to put up a Moose crossing sign by your camp because I almost hit a moose with my side by side. There are so many moose tracks that it looks closer to a cow pasture then a moose camp”.

    Last year when I went up we had a Cow tag and we seen six moose the first 3 days (obviously we got our moose) we were not even trying that hard so I know there is something desperately wrong with the MNR’s information but I digress.

    I guess we should also make sure to tell everyone I am from the Sarnia area and I am fighting like hell to get the OMNR to be accountable and to not forget that everyone form down south are a bunch yuppie A holes. Don’t get me wrong a lot of us are but I am not one of them. (It also helps I went to School in Sudbury and I use to work for a Bear Outfitter in Chapleau) What we need to do is try to band together much better then we are and not worry about the Geological surroundings in which we in-habit.

    As well I found out the OMNR let some civilians fly with them on the surveys they were from a group called Team NOSA. I sent them an e-mail asking for help and have not received a response so if any members are also members of Team NOSA getting me some information would be wonderful.

    If anyone has any direct questions for me and they would not like to post them on the ONTora website they can contact me directly at ezekielmarshall@gmail.com

    I was also informed by the Ombudsman office that not to expect much of a reply until after the Elections on June 12.

    Thank you very much for the help and the great work you folks do.

    Zeke Marshall

    • Joe Schmidt June 10, 2014, 4:29 pm

      Zeke, Gord. I have been busy with work and some private matters lately. Great letters. Check out the survey questionnaire on this site. A retired MNR manager Ron Alton gave his true feelings to the process. He even tackled the native issues. Please copy and spread his response on. Ron is also a member of OntORA.

  • Gord Pedersen May 15, 2014, 6:09 am

    Zeke for starters maybe I would like to know why on the Ontario Moose Bear Allocation Advisory Committee does not have real representation for the primary stakeholder group (public) and please do not allow them to say that our stakeholder has representation by the OFAH (LOL) .The committee does not have ADEQUATE (emphasis on this word) representation for our stakeholder group that represents the largest demographic for adult moose tags issued for allocation throughout the province, yet they have representation from two individuals representing remote tourism that in whole only represents 600 members that is the number given to me from Greg Lucking. It ends today to allow the OFAH to represent me when their track record of representing our stakeholder group is shameful and a disgrace.

  • Zeke May 20, 2014, 3:14 pm

    Gord
    Actually that is interesting. I have actually sent some questions off to the OFAH because how can they be the public voice if you have to join them to have a voice and the fact that the MNR is in bed with them brings up some ethical issues that I will not get into. I will definitely add your question and when I have the letter completed I will send a copy to Ontora and if there is anything that people feel I am missing or not being direct enough I will correct. The ombudsman office is keeping my case open for this which I was rather surprised since in the past I have had limited help from any Government Agency I have dealt with.

    Zeke

    ==============================================================================Not only is MNR in bed with them, OFAH is in bed with the Remote OUtfitters, just look at OFAH magazine, Ontario out of doors and see all the advertisements and articles related to RTO’s
    Sorry trying to type on a phone sucks
    Paul

    ===========================================================================
    To: ‘ofah@ofah.org’
    Subject: Moose Tag Allocation Questions
    Hello,
    I was wondering if I could please get some information from you folks.
    I have talked to the OMNR about the moose tag allocations this year and when I asked if they are going to take any of the public’s suggestions or input they told me they will only take that from the OFAH.
    My question is, is this true? My next question is, Is the OFAH actually public or will you only take comments from your members?
    If you could please help me out with this I would be truly grateful so I can make my concerns to the appropriate people about the moose tag survey and allocation.
    Thank you
    Zeke
    =====================================================================
    Hi Zeke – thanks for your email. I am surprised at the response you received from MNR; it is my understanding that MNR, as a public service, accepts comments from the public and not just large stakeholder groups like the OFAH. The OFAH is not public in the way that you envision. The mandate of the OFAH is to respond to and promote the concerns of our members, and we prioritize this over the concerns non-member anglers and hunters. However, there is quite a bit of overlap between OFAH’s position on various topics and the concerns of licensed hunters and anglers, and we are always willing to listen to the concerns of anglers and hunters in general. As a result, non-members often reap the benefits of the Federation’s tireless efforts to preserve our outdoor heritage, without contributing by being a member.
    The OFAH is heavily involved in the moose tag allocation process every year and we will continue to ensure that the concerns of our members are given due consideration in the government decision-making process.
    If you wish to become a member, please call Krista at 705.748.6324 x244.
    Yours in Conservation,
    Mark

    ===============================================================
    Hello Paul

    I agree with you 100% since most of there funding is from the Outfitters for the OFAH let me send you the email I just got from the OFAH you might get a kick out of it.

  • Penny Trottier June 16, 2014, 9:06 pm

    Well if outfitters are getting more tags they are not coming in our areas of 19 21. We have operated our resort and back in 1990 when we purchased the place the fellow we bought from did not partake of the outfitters tag allowance so we never had any, and the prospect of getting any was and is nill. However we do very well with southern Ontario hunters who enter the draw and choose to stay with us. Any way two years ago a the tag allotment for area 21 went way up. The story behind this is that some mnr biologist wants to see caribou reintroduced in this area so they want to lower the moose count. I wrote the then minister of natural resources Gravelle which of course he denied. So with the introduction of Caribou of course they will if ever take ages to reproduce in order to give any hunting opportunity to anyone. Can’t leave well enough alone. Frustrating.

    • Tym Barker June 17, 2014, 1:25 pm

      Yes, I read some MNR propaganda a couple of years ago that they want to re-introduce the woodland caribou to all of their historical ranges, and to do so they will purposely reduce the moose herds. And rumored quotes from MNR employees such as “there will NEVER be a hunting season” for Caribou in these areas.

      Just like they have it in their heads to eliminate Bass from Northern Ontario lakes so they can maintain the Walleye population. That’s why the Bass season is open all year now in many areas. They have NO IDEA what they’re doing. Short sighted at best. When it gets right down to it, Bass are a much better fight than Walleye, and as long as they don’t have worms they’re great eating, and when you’re on a lake and the Walleye fishing is slow, it’s great to be able to switch to Bass and have a blast catching them. I think it’s great to have both species in the lakes. There are many fisheries that support multiple coarse fish species (Bass, Walleye, Pike, Crappies, etc.) in the same lake.

      • Paul June 17, 2014, 4:35 pm

        I personally called MNR and asked them why they wanted to kill of the bass in the Northern Ontario area I live in which is Elliot Lake.
        They told me the bass do not belong here and are not native here and MNR considers bass as a predator and are killing off the smaller walleye and trout or are cleaning out their food source. Perfect answer , one would think.
        When I asked how the bass got here, I was told MNR stocked them in various lakes in the area. DAAA
        You are correct Tym, they really do not have a clue what they are doing….

    • Tym Barker June 17, 2014, 1:52 pm

      I realize there are different opinions on the Bass issue, but my main point is that the Ontario MNR has NO IDEA what they are doing.

      Legions of staff (doing who knows what) in Peterborough, downtown Sault Ste. Marie, Toronto, and dozens of District offices – and they can’t maintain a single healthy fish or game population in the entire province. All they know how to do is dream up endless idiotic policies, and harass the average guy out for a peaceful day in the outdoors. They’re absolutely useless. The entire ministry (except fire fighting) should be eliminated in my opinion.

      • Zeke Marshall June 17, 2014, 2:07 pm

        Tym your right they have no idea about what they are doing the worst part is they are in charge.

  • Zeke Marshall June 17, 2014, 8:51 am

    Hello Penny,

    I have heard that exact same story about the Biologist. I wish I could get info proving this.

    What happened in the area I use to hunt 28 is they reduced the tags from 400 to 30 in one year, but all the Remote Tourist Outfitters got their normal allotment. This has created allot of hard feelings as 28 was the most applied to wmu. You think the MNR would have been monitoring it better but I received info that they had not done a proper moose census for that area for 6 years (Direct quote from a MNR employee).

  • Tym Barker June 17, 2014, 1:15 pm

    Zeke,

    Are you sure the outfitters received the same number of tags, or did they receive the same percentage of tags (e.g. 10%-12%)?

    • Zeke Marshall June 17, 2014, 1:46 pm

      Number of tags

      • Zeke Marshall June 17, 2014, 1:49 pm

        Since they used old data the percentage and number actually stayed the same

    • Paul June 17, 2014, 4:50 pm

      My conversation with MNR, they advised me the RTO receive 12% now, I was increased a few years ago’ Also informed me the tags issued to RTO for the 2014 season was completed last year(2013) therefore they received the same number of tags as previous years, and dis not take any away. They might offend the RTO if they took any back. MNR are totally out of control

  • Gord Pedersen June 17, 2014, 2:43 pm

    From Greg Lucking MNR who oversees the OMBAAC committee Big Game Committee you know the stacked committee made of two remote tourism representatives, a mnr and a OFAH representative, Greg stated that remote tourism receives 10 % of all allocated tags so if the number of tags allocated are dropping, it goes without saying that the number of tags allocated to remote tourism should drop also. It would be interesting to see the numbers of previous years of tags allocated to remote tourism. I truly believe our MNR does not make a consolidated effort in trying to determine accurate population # of Ontario’s moose herd. In a recent post on Ontora a member was making a FOI demand on the numbers from our MNR”S flight log on the moose population in his WMU . That’s a heads up play from a concerned sportsmen questioning our trustees moose population numbers . I believe we should all question the MNR ‘s numbers.

  • MJR September 9, 2014, 4:33 pm

    I am a tourist lodge owner North of Thunder Bay. For some odd reason, the MNR seems to think that unit 16C has a huge population of moose and we are hearing from more and more resident hunters receiving tags for this area. In 5 years, I’ve had 2 moose taken by NR hunters. Many of the resident hunters gt skunked and vow never to return. There’s lots of moose, south of us in Unit 15B, around the Nipigon area but not in 16C. Maybe if you fly- in to the North, the Wabakimi, you’d probably find quite a bit more due to the remoteness. As many of you residents know, the cost for a non-resident is quite expensive. Licenses are over $400, plus gun permits, plus export permits, your talking over $550 just to be legal. Now let’s talk about the hunt itself, $$$$. Now the money they drop within Ontario on supplies, again,$$$$. So hopefully you can see why outfitters may get favored over a resident paying very minimal for a license. I do agree that some areas need to be closed to hunting , to ALL people, to bring the numbers back up. I do agree some outfitters have way, way to many tags/shares. One outfitter who used to be up in this area has well over 300+ shares, that’s a lot of tags. How many each share is worth in tags, I’m not sure. We rely heavily on our hunts to help cover year end expenses, and I would hate and it would hurt our business to have to give any up. Tourism has been declining since 2008, we don’t need any more hits. I heard of one outfitter half way up 527 getting 7 moose in 1 season, OUCH! Great for the outfitter but hard on the population, that’s meat greedy. The MNR needs to seriously look at the number of tags an outfitter is receiving, selling, filling, what the area can handle in moose kills. I agree everyone should be treated equally but that means EVERYONE, not let one set of people not have to abide by any laws or report any killings. If Ontario is to get a handle on this issue, EVERYONE needs to follow the same rules.

    • Zeke September 10, 2014, 8:46 am

      Hello MJR,

      I have actually heard the same thing about 16C with the number of tags and the declining population. I wonder if this has to do with the same issues in 21 were they plan on relocating another species. (It is purely speculation).

      There is a very large elephant in the room with equal taking of moose and equality of all Canadians. That is the Native American issue. What we need to do is make that system fare. I have Natives say to me it is there god given right because the rest of Canada treats them unfairly. I would agree we do treat them unfairly. They are actually better than the rest of Canada. I am tired of the same old excuse we were here first as technically we are all immigrants to this country including them. They were never conservationists like they claim that is why they were a nomadic race. What they would do is move into the area build their villages and kill everything and rape the land up to a one days walk. When the land was no longer viable and all the animals and fish were wiped out they would move. We learned this in Canadian History class but people still do not want to believe it. As well when White man (I love it they can use derogatory White Man but it is bad for us to use the word Indian) showed up the Native society was on the way out they were declining and they may have went extinct if we didn’t come around. (Theory like so many) I do not agree with what happened to the Natives in the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s. But because of a few politicians and religious organizations the rest of us need to pay and give the Natives special status it is a bunch of crap. My family is Scottish (Marshall) and we were overrun by the British many times in History and they tried to wipe us out, but I do not receive a cheque from the Government of Britain or the Queen or lands given back to me for what was taken from our treaties with Britain. If I brought one of our treaties to the UN or the British court they would laugh at me and not allow me to even bring a case against them but we have to do this double standard garbage with the Natives.
      Our MNR&F is so crippled by this that they will not even go after Natives when they are breaking the few rules that they have to follow. For the good of the resources the Useless Ontario Government and the very useless MNR&F won’t even propose that the Natives have to record what they take. The MNR&F is such a useless entity that I do not know why anyone even listens to them or even follow the rules anymore They don’t why should we. We as White people should start yelling discrimination as I have personally seen MNR&F bypass Natives Asians and other races to go and harass White People. I even asked the CO about this and he said to me blatantly that he has direction to avoid those people and only deal with White people. You know why because we don’t fight. White Canadians are the biggest group of push overs that lets everyone walk on us. I am not saying we should become racists or anything like that because I am against any form of racism our hatred towards other groups as I will be honest my Great Grandfather was A Native American from the Ottawa Valley. What I want is everyone to be equal (No Special Status) for anyone. We are all supposed to be the same but we are not and we are definitely not treated that way by the MNR&F or the Government. We need to say look everyone regardless of creed religion; social economic status must follow the same rules. That rule for moose should be simple. ALL KILLS MUST BE REPORTED FOR PROPER MOOSE POPULATION CENSUSES.

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